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Voicing my convictions.
09-25-2007 · 64 Comments
Warning: Not a fun and light post.
In one of her recent posts, It’s Not Just a Women’s Issue, Julie closed with some strong words that I’ve chewed on a few days.
Act according to your convictions. Realize and accept that not everyone will agree with you, but have the courage to act anyway - whether that means deactivating your Facebook account, refusing to fly on a particular airline, or answering honestly when someone asks where you attend church.
If you follow the link, you’ll see her post was about what she called the “latest social media debacle” - Facebooks’ ridiculous deletion of photos of breastfeeding babies. However, as she stated above, this can apply to anything.
Today, it applies to me and my stance on Capital Punishment.
We lost a member of our community yesterday. Her name was Susan Canfield, and she was an officer for TDCJ. She and a few other officers were guarding minimum security prisoners from the Wynne Unit on a work detail outside of the gate. The Wynne Unit has a trustee camp. The trustees are prisoners who, as a result of their good disciplinary records, have more freedoms than other prisoners. These prisoners were not trustees, but still working outside the gate for whatever reason.
Two inmates managed to wrestle weapons away from a pair of guards, then traded gunfire with officers, stole a flat-bed truck and ran Susan Canfield down, on her horse, and killed her.
I can’t even believe these two inmates, with their history, could have been allowed outside the gate. One was in prison for murder, the other for attempted murder. Heck, I don’t understand why they weren’t executed already. I absolutely and positively disagree with prison for life sentences for murderers and those who attempt murder.
These two were “at large” at the time I picked Emelie up from school for an eye doctor appointment. Every school in town had every entrance locked and guarded. As is the procedure, students are even locked into their actual classrooms. I was able to leave the school with her, but when we arrived at the eye doctor, we couldn’t get in that door - it was locked. Why? Because they were protecting themselves from what had JUST HAPPENED THERE.
The escapees had parked the flatbed truck they stole in the old Kentucky Fried Chicken parking lot right behind our Optometrist’s building. Then, they ran across the street to the bank and abducted a woman trying to ATM. Holding a gun to her head, one of the prisoners crawled into the back of the truck and the other, in the front seat, forced the woman to drive away from the bank parking lot. The employees and patrons at the Optometrist’s office had just watched the event unfold. Everyone had hit the floor as officers fired on the truck, busting out the tires. The woman and vehicle were abandoned and the escapees took off on foot.
The manhunt continued for several more hours, with both escapees caught in the end. The entire town was on alert. While on the run, the escapees tried to get into a back door at Wal*mart. I can’t imagine the damage they could have caused in a store full of possible hostages. Their plan was ridiculous and poorly thought out. I’m glad.
At one point it was rumored that one had been shot dead behind Wal*mart and I was immediately thankful. Then, it was released that he was caught and I felt a deep sense of frustration to know he was still alive.
When the second escapee was caught south of town, high in a tree and nearly naked (trying to throw off the bloodhounds chasing him down with armed officers on horseback), I didn’t feel a deep sense of relief, but of anger.
I wished it was different.
I wish that their previous charges, combined with the current murder and escape efforts, could have cost them their life on the spot. In my opinion, it warranted a “shoot to kill” release for any and every officer.
I wanted my tax monies to pay for a bullet to their head and not what will happen - time in County Jail, a trial, and then maybe death row.
I support Capital Punishment, but I think we take too much stinkin’ time to fulfill the ruling.
Two men killed Susan Canfield yesterday in an attempt to gain a freedom they stole from their own selves. One was even questioned about whether he was remorseful and he said he had nothing to lose. NOTHING TO LOSE?!
Susan had a husband of 18 years to lose.
She had a family.
She had friends.
I am telling you these men will spend the next 10 years - if not more - waiting to die.
I don’t think our system bites because every once in a while we might just kill an innocent man or woman.
Nope, our system bites because we give life sentences, and “good behavior” duties, rather than a quick shot to the head.
AP Photo/Houston Chronicle, Bruce W. Moore
Amen and Amen!
My husband says that the USA should bring back public hangings. That way justice is swift, and it will scare wanna-be criminals into not being criminals.
Keep voicing! I’m sure you’ll take some flak for this one, but you are right on the money.
Wow. I completely disagree. But its great you wrote what you actually think and voiced your opinion. And I also think nigelmoose is right, probably some flak coming.
Oh, amen to every word you said. I completely agree with you. You will get some crap so I had to make sure you knew people supported your stance on this!
Hey you guys - whether you agree or disagree, I’m thankful for the comments. I recognize that there will be disagreement, as well as agreement, and there are many who are on the fence. And sometimes being on the fence doesn’t mean you can’t stand strong, but that you haven’t figured out WHAT you want to stand strong about.
I’m just gonna let the comments roll out and let you all know that y’all pretty much rock the house whether we see eye to eye or not.
I understand your anger better than you know. I know firsthand the devastation of losing a close family member to random violence. And I’ve sat through a trial where the end result could have been capital punishment (and probably would have been, had there not been a plea bargain).
But I think that as rational, ethical beings we need to tamper our anger when it comes to the lives of other human beings. It’s easy in this case to say that the assailants deserved death. Even though I am opposed to the death penalty, I feel that they DESERVE to die for their crimes (I just don’t think that it’s my right or the right of the government to fulfill that justice — but that is a different issue altogether). But I fear that these cut-and-dried, black-and-white cases make up the tiniest minority of the those that face capital punishment. And as such, I don’t think they should be the basis for our justice system. Yes, ten years of appeals are frustrating, but when the identity of many killers is based on unreliable or biased witnesses, when DNA overturns decades-old convictions, and when rich and/or white defendants receive better defense counsel than poor or minority defendants, I find it hard to cheer for capital punishment.
What if Susan Canfield had been killed not by a runaway car of escaped felons but by a fatal injection because of a confused identity? The loss of an innocent life is still a loss. And I think that if we are going to give our government the right to execute human beings, the least we can ask of them is to take their time, be deliberate in their decision-making process and not rush the process to assuage our anger.
Right on Sister! And I though Texas was fairly liberal with Capital Punishment. Goes to show…
Oh my god woman. I think I love you! Thank you for having the courage to say this even though we all know that it is going to attract some trolls. I agree with you 100%
Every time I hear something like this I’m reminded of the novels of Robert Heinlein. Starship Troopers in particular. (the book, not the movie. Don’t even talk to me about the movie)
In the book, Heinlein draws an analogy between criminal behavior and raising a puppy. If the puppy does something undesirable, you punish it. He has a chance to learn what is considered unacceptable. If you punish it immediately and consistantly, soon, he knows what not to do. The punishment doesn’t even need to be severe at this point. If you don’t punish it, it never learns and soon, you’ll have an uncontrollable dog that has to be killed for other people’s safety.
Why is it that in this country, people are not learning what behaviors are unacceptable? There are no consequences enforced. People end up with “nothing to lose” I bet that the next law-breaker would think twice if they were witness to someone actually paying for their crimes.
I’ll get off my soapbox now…
Oh, dear God, I am so glad that you and Emelie were there AFTER it all went down. How awful for Susan Canfield’s family and friends, and for your whole community.
I agree with a lot of what Not the Mama said, but I also think that anger is the *correct* response to murder and other heinous crimes. I’m not saying we should act in anger, mind you. (Especially not the government; as NtMM pointed out, it’s charged with the serious business of weighing evidence against criminals and possibly ending their lives. That should take some time.) But righteous anger can be a powerful force for good.
“I don’t think our system bites because every once in a while we might just kill an innocent man or woman.”
I have to say I think our system bites because an INNOCENT man or woman might be EXECUTED, especially if it’s me.
Powerful post, though, and I’m glad you and yours are safe.
Amen. At least we both also live in carry and conceal states, where if I’d been in your shoes, it would’ve been me, my daughter and my husband’s .357 on the way to the optometrist’s office. The only thing that gets me angrier than random violence like this is when the government takes away our right to defend ourselves against it.
I would say I’m an on the fence type, but I’m glad you decided to post your opinion and not run from the possible flack. I posted something a few months ago with only the smallest amount (I mean teeny tiny) of controversy and a few people challenged me about it and nearly peed my pants. I felt so exposed - which I should have expected since I posted my opinion on MY BLOG for goodness sake. Oh well. Now I’m a little gun shy. Good for you. I’m very interested in peoples comments to this.
PS - Bravo for voicing your convictions! I need to pony up and do the same on my own blog, but it’s always so emotionally draining.
AMEN! Thank you for this post, I couldn’t agree more! And thank GOD you and Emelie were just fine. Just 10 minutes earlier, you know? ugh…
Agree 110% with you OMSH! There is no mistaken identity in this case and many of the cases where they are on death row there are numerous witnesses. When it this cut and dry– shoot the b*@tard!
The prisoners have rights … yaddi,yaddi, ya
Where are Mrs. Canfield’s families rights?
My loved one was up there yesterday and called me to tell me of all the chaos. God forbid, if something would have had happened to him. I would be begging the system to allow me to fire the shot.
I was a victim of a brutal crime many years ago, therefore, if anyone finds me jaded or unfeeling walk in my shoes.
LOL, you really got my dander up with this post and Julie’s… I guess I’ll go take a walk. ;)
Chocolate Chic- That is the exact same thing (hanging) that was said at lunch today when we were discussing the situation.
(sorry, had to post again, I didn’t read comments before I posted not be swayed)
Amen sister. Bring in the execution couch. Line them up. This is a cut and dry case. If the criminals deserve a speedy trial, then the victims deserve a speedy execution.
HOLLEY–I love your logic.
I met with an inmate today at the unit I work in who has an uncle who is scheduled to be executed VERY soon–HE has been on death row 20 years. ‘Thank you tax-payers.’
You know, today’s inmates have the same mentality in prison as they did when they were back on the streets: entitlement. ALL of these problems point to a societal problem; it’s not limited to the judicial system…welfare, “benefits” (e.g. Medicaid), credit/debt, divorce, molestation/abuse, addiction…The solution for all, however, is the same.
Thanks OMSH for making this post.
“Amen. At least we both also live in carry and conceal states, where if I’d been in your shoes, it would’ve been me, my daughter and my husband’s .357 on the way to the optometrist’s office.”
Oh my. This is what scares me.
I used to work with a man that was going to seminary school, studying to be a preacher. I had this discussion with him way back then. I grew up in Texas around Huntsville.
I asked him as a Christian, seeing as you believe that God is the one that is deemed to dole out the revenge, what he thought of capital punishment. He said it wasn’t so much an issue of whether or not God was involved, but it was a moral judgment on someone.
And he didn’t see that people were as capable as god to be impartial when it came to moral judgment. it made me think a lot about my beliefs. so has terrorism, for that matter, the senseless deaths there. Who ultimatle pays for these crimes?
The victims pay. And the families of the victims. That is the greatest tragedy. I don’t have an answer but i don’t see it as so black and white. Killing anyone is a job I am glad that I don’t have to do.
Wow… I’m not really sure what to say as I’m in shock. I’m an Australian and your post has made me realise just how lucky I am to live in a country which abolished capital punishment quite a while ago.
I am 100% against the death penalty.
I am saddened by what happened in your community, and I am saddened by your response too. In particular, this comment shocked me to the core: “I don’t think our system bites because every once in a while we might just kill an innocent man or woman. Nope, our system bites because we give life sentences, and “good behavior” duties, rather than a quick shot to the head.”
I don’t even know how to begin to respond to that. Dare I ask how many innocent people you are willing to sacrifice? I guess what upsets me the most is that you think you have the right to make this call. No human should have the right to make a judgment on whether someone’s life is or isn’t worthy. No human should feel comfortable making such a decision - I for one know I could not handle having to make a decision as to whether someone should die. Fact: Since 1973, 124 people have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence. I hate to think how many other innocent people were killed.
The fact of the matter is that people who are sentenced to death are usually being discriminated against, most often because of race or economic status. Here are some stats (from http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org):
- The chances of receiving a death sentence are nearly four times higher if the defendant is black.
- The key decision makers in death penalty cases are almost exclusively white men.
- Race is more likely to affect death sentencing than smoking affects the likelihood of dying from heart disease.
- Blacks are frequently put to death for murdering whites, but whites are almost never executed for murdering blacks.
- Almost all defendants in capital cases cannot afford their own attorneys.
- In Washington State, 20% of the people who have faced execution in the last 20 years were represented by lawyers who had been, or were later, disbarred, suspended or arrested.
- In Texas, about one in four death row inmates had been defended by lawyers who have been reprimanded, placed on probation, suspended or banned from practicing law.
- Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said “People who are well represented at trial do not get the death penalty”
Please do not think that I am in any way discounting what criminals have done. But capital punishment is ‘revenge’, and this doesn’t help anyone. Instead it just keeps the cycle of violence going. There is far too much anger in the world, and not enough compassion, grace and forgiveness. Of course criminals should face consequences for their actions - but killing them isn’t the answer and never will be.
I understand this is an emotional topic, and I applaud you for bravely stating your opinion. I realise that I am not going to change anyone’s mind, but I do hope that everyone thinks about it some more. I also realise that your post was more about the speediness of executions, so I’m sorry for going off topic and for such a length post.
Your post is somewhat timely as October 10th is the World Day against the Death Penalty, which will focus on the proposed UN General Assembly’s 62nd session resolution for a universal moratorium on executions.
I couldn’t agree with you more. Loved this post!
I think those who commit heinous murders should be put to death - quickly. Just today the Supreme Court agreed to review the methods of execution, because they cause “pain”. Well, damn.
If the death penalty is determined, make it swift and efficient. It’s no deterrent with years in on appeal and bleeding hearts jumping on the bandwagon because life’s not fair. Well, damn.
I agree with you on the most part. the cut and dry cases. its the other cases of those that may be innocent that bother me. for instance, we have a friend in jail right now, for murder. and he didnt do it. he was protecting a 14 year old girl, and he is sitting there for the crime, for now, until he goes to court. he has been there for 6 months, and the date keeps getting pushed back. How do I know he didnt do this? well its a small town, people know things, but most importantly, ive prayed about it, searched deep within my soul, and my heart, and I know He didnt do it.
Now on the other hand, i was waiting in court yesterday, a case came up. A rape of a 9 year old girl. the child is now 12~! three years! three, this has been going on. the laywer was trying to appeal this guys case. he ripped this childs testimony to pieces, but there was a witness. an older child. the guy was guilty! and i think he should be punished for it. i dont think i should, as a tax payer, have to pay for him sitting in jail. to feed him, keep him warm and keep him in a cell all by himself because they are scared other inmates will kill him.
he killed this girls soul, damaged her for life. and i dont agree with him sitting in jail for the next 10 years. matter of fact, he wont. he got released on time served and probation! for raping a child! how is this fair. they let him go, and how long will it be before he does this again? i dont think he should live another day on this earth. it may not be my decision to make, but he should have no freedom. he took the freedom of a 9 year old girl, why should he be alive to have the freedom we all fight for, and to take the freedom away from another child, or woman.
I don’t agree with the death penalty but I completely applaud you for sharing your opinions and having the conviction to stand by them.
I’m also really glad that you guys weren’t there when all the shooting was going on.
That is horrible. Simply horrible.
I can only ask why people make such imbecilic choices. I 100% agree with your statement that they stole freedome from themselves.
SO true.
Idiots.
Wow. You certainly stirred SOMETHING up here!! I’m with Bethany Actually. “Righteous anger can be a powerful force for good.” Too bad it’s so politically incorrect.
I disagree with you. Evidence shows that we can and do execute innocent people with some regularity. If it were you or a member of your family, I am sure you would feel differently about the innocent being executed. But that probably won’t happen, since we only execute the poor and, overwhelmingly, people of color. The system is rigged, the system is broken, and the system doesn’t do anything to make people safer. But hey, it satisfies our need for blood lust, so I guess that makes it the American thing to do. Few other countries even execute anymore. Doing so puts us in the company or Iran, Syria, and China. THAT tells me something.
A-FREAKING-MEN.
We had a similar situation a year ago. It tore up our community. The criminal died. And though it couldn’t bring the officer back, I was glad justice was swift, and he didn’t waste our tax dollars in prison.
Good for you for speaking your mind and holding to your convictions.
I am so sorry for the loss of a kind woman from your community.
Amen.
I liked Holley’s comment, too. :)
What sucks is that if, oh, say, anybody in the optometrist’s office was carrying a weapon and shot one or both of the prisoners to wound or more to protect themselves and their coworkers, that person would most likely get hauled into jail or whatnot. Almost makes me wish I lived in a little bubble from 200 years ago. Almost.
Kari ~ I am curious about one thing you said.
“Of course criminals should face consequences for their actions - but killing them isn’t the answer and never will be.”
What kinds of consequences would work? That wouldn’t result in my husband basically working for all of January and February or more to pay for our “share” of the prison system so to speak? (If I remember right, folks in the US are basically working for Uncle Sam/taxes until about March-May, the rest after that is their take-home.)
Besides having every man, woman and child allowed/mandated to carry a firearm to protect themselves (heh, the crime rate would sure drop if a potential robber/rapist knew they’d be seriously harmed) in a pro-active/pre-emptive way, what would work to make sure someone wouldn’t continue raping children? Or murdering random (or not) people? Or breaking into every house in the neighborhood?
Moving on, I bet some prison inmates can make more money than my mother - who’s my parents’ sole breadwinner - and she has to pay for hers and dad’s medical care as well. Gah, it’s time for me to go to bed.
“Besides having every man, woman and child allowed/mandated to carry a firearm to protect themselves (heh, the crime rate would sure drop if a potential robber/rapist knew they’d be seriously harmed) in a pro-active/pre-emptive way, what would work to make sure someone wouldn’t continue raping children?
”
You want everyone, including children, to carry guns? Come on. The crime rate wouldn’t go down. The amount of people shot over petty arguments would go up. The number of kids running through the schools shooting their classmates would go up. The number of accidents in the home where a child finds a gun and accidentally shoots them self or a friend would go up. Guns are not the anwser. Why do so many people think that two wrongs make a right? They don’t. Research shows that the states which HAVE the death penalty have HIGHER rates of homicides than states WITH the death penalty. So no, executions do not deter people from committing crimes. Apparently, they just make people feel better that their tax dollars aren’t being spent on keeping criminals in prison. Honestly, I think that tax dollars are spent on much worse.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?&did=1705#stateswithvwithout
Oops. Just re-read my post. I meant states with the death penalty have higher homicide rates than states without. But the link is pretty clear on that.
I’m reading each and every one of these. I am glad to hear all of you - even those who are steadfast against my opinions.
I think it is interesting and “real” to see a cross-representation of our blogging community. It would be naive for any of us to think that those who read us agree with us - and that is why I LOVE comments.
I do want to ask those of you who are opposed to the right to bear arms whether or not you feel killing in self defense is a crime. I think of killing those who kill us as a form of self defense for our community and nation.
I did not post facts and figures, of which I’m sure I can stir up many, of my thoughts on CP. My husband works as a psychotherapist within one of the prison units and I believe if any one of these prisoners were in my home exacting violence on a family member, the statistics would not mean anything to me at that time.
I realize some call that revenge, and I’m okay with that term, when a mini-war is being waged right in my home or community.
We do have weapons in our home. They are used primarily for hunting, and off-season, target practice. My children are familiar with what they can do and their power. They have all gone out and watched daddy shoot. They will all be trained on proper usage of those weapons.
Well-trained children with well-trained access to firearms are not a big deal… I’m not exactly an ancient person (33), and grew up in an area where yes, we did have rifles in the trucks at the high school during hunting season, we did go shooting as a family, and the guns were kept in the front closet, on the shelves. They were tools, and treated with respect. No problems with them, either.
We currently live in an open-carry state. My older children are well-trained with age-appropriate firearms (each owns their own little rifle, which they do not touch outside of parental supervision).
Have we found ourselves in horrible, threatening situations like OMSH and her community did yesterday? Not yet, thank Heaven. If we were, would I be fine with doing whatever was necessary to protect my family against an imminent threat? You bet. Where personal firearms are restricted, violent crime rates rise. Period. It’s demonstrable all over the globe.
Capital punishment is another facet of a similar arguement, but I do believe in the validity of “preventing” the worst of the violent offenders from ever offending again, and doing so within a very reasonable time-frame. It may or may not be a deterrent to other criminals of like mind–but it will definitely prevent that particular criminal from hurting others again.
The case OMSH shares from yesterday is pretty darn clear-cut. Two criminals killed an innocent woman in completely cold blood, with plenty of witnesses around to verify it. I have no problem with a police kill, rather than capture. It’s sickening to think of them having yet more opportunities to do this, or something similar, again. How many times do you pick up a rattle snake and cuddle it close, even after you’ve been fatally bitten? At some point, you kill the snake.
My husband is retired law enforcement and we support capital punishment too. But we feel, because of all the appeals that are available to the criminal, it is not the deterent it should be. The irony is that BECAUSE it takes so long to execute someone, it is actually cheaper to keep them in prion for life than it is to execute them (because of all the expense of appeals).
I used to think that putting prisoners to death was too good for them. That what they deserved was a lifetime of suffering in prison. I also used to think that only God had the right to take a life, and not people. But… in today’s system…where people are serving less and less time for their sentences, getting probation because of prison overcrowding, escaping and causing mayhem to innocent people, I don’t know what I believe anymore.
I agree with you 100%. There are so many people throughout history who have voiced their opposition to capital punishment because they have never lost a loved one to the hands of another human being. Once you take the life of another–or even attempt to take the life of another, you have lost all rights.
AMEN! And while they’re at it, bring back public executions, to give would-be criminals something to think about.
I posted earlier and was on the fence. After some time to think though, I’m anti-death penalty. For me, if I was only thinking of the social ramifications of having obviously dangerous criminals among us, sure, get rid of them and as fast as possible. But thinking in eternal terms, I would be doing more than ending their lives on earth. Putting them to death would be more than likely also sending them to the eternal flames of hell. I honestly believe even the worst offenders still should have as many days on earth as is humanly possible to find Jesus. It’s risky of course, and there will be times when they never repent, cause more harm, kill more people even. But, our ultimate safety and their judgment rests in God’s hands. I can not bring myself to hasten anyone’s eternal judgment. I’m sure when faced with the reality of it in my face I might *feel* differently, but I hope I always *believe* what I’ve just posted.
I am definitely opposed to the right to bear arms. The thought of random people on the street carrying guns around is horrifying to me. How do I know a person is trained to handle such a weapon? How do I know they are an accurate shot, and that if I am, god forbid, in a situation where someone decides another person needs to be shot, that I won’t end up a dead innocent bystander? I don’t. I just have to trust they take it seriously? I don’t leave my car unlocked in a parking lot because I don’t trust that my possessions will be there when I return, much less trust someone to walk around with a gun. I really can’t understand how anyone would feel safer with more people carrying them around. It doesn’t make any sense to me at all.
And kids having guns? Its just, I guess it just goes against my very definition of ’safe’. I can’t fathom giving a kid a gun. And I’m sure a lot of it has to do with the fact that I didn’t grow up with guns in the house and whatever. And I know that people like Liz C have made sure her kids have the proper education. But an ‘age appropriate rifle’ is just so wrong to me on so many levels. I won’t let my daughter play at a friends house without me there if the family owns guns. I don’t know what kind of safety measures people take, and its just not worth it.
This is turning out to be much longer than I thought. Anyway, all that said, killing in self defense isn’t a crime to me, but I think it has to be in real time, in the situation. You couldn’t get in a fight, wait a month, and then go kill someone in ’self defense’. That wouldn’t exactly hold up in court, so to me, executing someone isn’t self defense. Killing is wrong. End of story.
Biblically, Numbers 35:9 touches on this subject. God does give us the right to “judge” on this aspect. I think that making punishments quicker and a little harsher would cut down on criminal activity. Not saying we have to kill everyone but I do think our jails and prisons are just a little too comfy. The minute they break the law I believe their rights diminish extensively. We need to have a firm and thorough judicial system with a swift and precise punishment. You never know what you are going to get in terms of breaking the law so it is “worth it.” I think that if the U.S. made punishment of criminal acts less desirable or more predictable crime rates would go down. On the subject of taking away guns from ordinary citizens or the right to conceal, what does that do. Law abiding citizens are not the ones we need to worry about. If somebody has malicious intent for a weapon their conscience is lacking. They will get a weapon unlawfully which is still going to happen no matter how many restrictions you put on fire arms. So in theory the bad guys will still have weapons and us, the law abiding citizens will have no way to protect our selves. It gives free reign to criminals.
Good post OMSH. I applaud you!
i could not agree with you more! A-freakin’-MEN! The bible says “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” which translates into “a life for a life”. i was just reading a short article in one of those free metro newspapers about a couple of Kentucky death row inmates who are arguing that lethal injection is cruel and unusual punishment. both were convicted on murder charges. i wonder if they consider the treatment (murder) that they committed as being “cruel and unusual”. it’s high time we stopped this nonsense of dragging out executions and as Ron White likes to say “put it on the express lane”. i don’t like to think about someone dying or being murdered, but you know, you get what you give in this world, whether you want to or not. maybe God would like for me to forgive a murderer, but does forgiving mean that punishment for the crime (or sin) is removed? we are all gonna die some day, even if we are “saved”. so, the way i see it, if i forgive a murderer, i can still support the death penalty.
thanks for posting on this. it is good to speak out about things you feel strongly about.
Yikes! I have to say, I find your comment “I don’t think our system bites because every once in a while we might just kill an innocent man or woman” incredibly disturbing! We are humans, our system is not infallible, and we acknowledge that fact by providing the utmost protections against wrong convictions. Even so, they still happen. I’m not 100% for or against the death penalty, per se, but I AM against “a quick shot to the head”-type justice. I’m also against programs that give convicted felons the opportunity to endanger entire communities like these two men did. There MUST be balance between protecting society and protecting ALL human life.
long time lurker here.
I am also an AUSTRALIAN and I want to say that I COMPLETELY AGREE with everything you said. I actually live in the US and maybe if the Australian that posted earlier also lived here their persepctive would be different. SHE DOES NOT LIVE HERE.
Firstly, I am sorry for what happened and am relieved that you and yours are OK.
Criminals like these men need to be taken out back and shot in the head. No questions asked. They had “nothing to lose” remember?
Why should we have to continually pay for them to sit in jail with NO RESPONSIBILITIES but to launch time consuming appeals? When it is cut and dry and they receive the death penality then the death penality should be carried out IMMEDIATLEY.
OK so there is the possibilty that there will be a few mistakes - I AM WITH YOU SISTA…….so be it. It is the a risk I will take.
I am so tired of reading about rapists and child molesters and murderers being released on good behavior only to DO IT AGAIN shortly after they are released. sick of it. I will point out that MANY of these offenders also “found God” while in prison…uh huh.
on the matter of gun control…..I happen to be all for it but I have my reasons. The problems as I see them are that the bad guys are able to carry weapons so us good guys also have to in order to protect ourselves. I CANNOT think of one good reason a person has to own say an AK47. I undersatnd that the right to bear arms is huge here and I am fine with it and respect it but feel that it’s catch 22- bad guys have guns so good guys need guns. What if there were no guns? I know-will never happen. I just wish for tighter gun control. I see the problems but do not have a solution. Look how easy it was for the Virginia Tech killer to obtain firearms? Thank God he killed himself. If he had not then he would be sitting in jail on our dime for years.
I am so tired of the Liberals and the do-gooders blathering on about prisoners rights. At a certain point they have no rights. They are being fed 3 meals a day and have a place to sleep and even have access to books/television etc. That’s CRAP. Many law abiding citizens do not have those things. You lose your rights when you commit a crime.
These 2 men from yesterday…..they do not deserve to live. There is no “maybe” in their case. They are murderers and should not have been out on “work release” in the first place. I can guarantee you that if the poor woman that lost her life yesterday was a relative to one of these liberal/anti death penalty folks posting their opinions they would have a different one. GUARANTEE IT!
Let’s look at Timothy McVie - right up until the very end he was NOT remorseful. There is only one GOOD thing that sick man did in his life and that was to refuse all appeals and he was executed immediatly. The Liberals would have us allow him to appeal and appeal and it would still be going on today. Why after one appeal has failed are they allowed to launch another?
When you receive the death penality it should mean what it says. Death Row should be no longer than 30 days and I would not even grant them a last meal request.
The posters saying that these criminals need to be able to find Jesus? I am so tired of hearing these criminals “finding God” AFTER they have been convicted of a heinous crime. God is not a “convenient God” and only he knows if these people are sincerely sorry for what they did. Only HE knows. If they truly are sincere then they will go to heaven as opposed to hell right before they are executed. Have we given Charles Manson long enough to find God? If he said he had do we then let him go? It i snot up to us whether these criminals have enough time to find God or not. It is between them and God and as I said only HE knows the truth.
BRAVO to you OMSH for your stance and willingness to put it out here.
I am really ANGERED by the negative responses you are receiving. Angered enough to come out of lurker mode.
Sheila, I’d absolutely support your right as a citizen and as a parent to *not* have guns in your home, and to fully supervise your children when guns may be present in another home. We’re very up front with those who would have their children in our home, and I’m always happy to discuss the precautions and safety measures we take. I was born and raised in the Western US, where our “frontier days” are really not that long ago–there tends to be a healthy respect for the firearm as a useful tool, and far, far less goofing around or casual use of firearms, which definitely influences my own attitudes toward law-abiding citizens having the ability (but the absolute CHOICE) to be armed or not. The laws in place that cover legal firearms ownership and use provide multiple levels of safety and oversight, without removing the US Constitutional rights of citizens to own guns, or not.
One situation that comes to mind where citizens, crime, guns, and the death penalty all intersect is a mall shooting in Salt Lake City Utah not too long ago. Bad Guy on a shooting rampage was shot accurately dead by a legally armed, law-abiding citizen. Far fewer people died than would have had everyone been waiting for SWAT to arrive, no one was shot other than the Bad Guy’s victims and the Bad Guy himself, and the Bad Guy had an immediate and permanent consequence for his really, really evil, cold-blood choice.
I can also agree that our penal system has flaws as it currently stands. I can remember being Really Disgruntled reading an article about Oregon maximum-security prisons while I was in college. Hardened criminals lived rent-free in spaces larger and more cushy than I did, could take free college classes that I was working my buns off to pay for, and were gauranteed three meals a day, every day of the year. I wasn’t. Should criminals have more comforts than law-abiding citizens? That’s a flaw in the penal system I’ll be willing to work to see corrected.
I’ll be willing to work to see prosecutors held to high standards, and to reduce plea bargaining for heinous offenses, and to close loopholes that let dirt-bags get early release, and to provide for greater protection of victims. There are ways to *improve* the system, and those should be looked at. Capital punishment does have a place, in my opinion, and I’m willing to do what I can to make sure it’s used well, and efficiently, and in beyond-the-doubt cases that were tried with high, high standards of conduct on all sides.
And, huge thanks to OMSH for allowing comments–very thought-provoking comments from everyone, and I’m enjoying the interchange greatly! No mush-for-brains for this pregnant lady today, anyhow!
Liz, I know there are people like you and your family who take the time and responsibility to know laws and know how to handle a gun. You are responsible and are teaching your kids to be responsible as well, and thats great. But I also know there are others who don’t do this. In a mall, I can’t tell the two apart, which is really scary to me.
And obviously the guy in the mall didn’t care that Utah was a conceal and carry state. Thinking that maybe someone else in the mall had a gun on him didn’t stop him from killing. I agree with you that fewer people may have died because someone DID have a gun, but the ‘Bad Guy’ still did an evil thing, which a lot of commenters seem to think would have never happened with the right to conceal and carry.
Wow, I couln’t even read all your comments because it’s like reading 48 blogs!
I completely agree with you, mostly. If a case is COMPLETELY OBVIOUS, I think the death pentalty should be quick and painful. These days a convicted criminal has WAY more rights than the victim and his/her family. How wrong is that? If the case is convicted on circumstantial evidence, I think a life sentence should be the penalty. There are more wrongful convictions in that sense I’d imagine. But yea, if it’s OBVIOUS that someone has committed murder or attempted murder, the person should have a “quick shot to the head”.
I read more comments - cut and dry - that’s what I meant. Cut and dry cases should DEFINATELY be death pentalty cases. Circumstantial ones - life sentence because of the margin of error.
I am sooo glad you and your family missed the action. I live in a small town, too and we are not far from two major prisons - one for men and one for women. Everytime someone escapes, my mother-in-law goes into high alert. We live off the road not near any neighbors and she is afraid something will happen to us. I’m trying to remain calm and she is calling freaking out. Not a good situation.
I am not opposed to the death penalty. Sometimes there is no other choice. I am opposed to the injustices in the system. Why are these people escaping? Why are they sitting aorund so long? Why are minorities more likely to go to jail and why are many people poorly defended? None of this is right. Not a bit of it. As for chlid molesters, esp. the kind mentioned, I believe the death penalty should be applied to them. Prison is not a rehabilitation gig here. It is a warehousing gig and I am not pleased that my hard-earned money is taken from my family to pay for things like that. Pray HARD.
for Alicia and others who think carrying/learning/using guns is NOT useful:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818862/posts
Me again … the anti-death penalty Australian! (And KC - I don’t see how living in the US would change my perspective)
Lanna - in response to your question about consequences, I think they can be locked up in jail for life. The evidence showing that the death penalty apparently acts as a deterrent is shaky at best. There’s just as much evidence proving that it isn’t a deterrent.
I think instead of focussing on the death penalty, perhaps you all should be lobbying for harsher sentencing. I believe that rapists and child molesters and murderers should be in jail for life. I don’t think they should get out on ‘good behaviour’ or parole, but they definitely shouldn’t get the death penalty. And also lobby to reduce prisoner’s rights if you are concerned about the cost of keeping them in prison.
Also in regards to cost, apparently each death penalty case costs something like $23 million more per case than a life sentence. And I know that many of you will then state that’s why they should be put to death quicker, but no one has responded to the fact that the majority of death row inmates are minorities and the poor. Am I to assume that you don’t care the death penalty more often applies to black people and the poor? And that you don’t care that the death penalty kills innocent people? Shouldn’t you be focussing on the fact that the justice system isn’t fair, that equal sentencing should be provided regardless of race or economic status?
And maybe if there was more consistent and harsher sentencing that would act as just as much of a deterrent and also reduce the need for the public to defend themselves against serial offenders.
Can someone give me stats that show carrying guns and the death penalty has reduced homicides and other serious offences?
Kari - I’m sorry if you felt attacked. I appreciated your honesty in responding to my post.
And please, everyone responding, I really do want to hear your personal stances, but I do not want this to become a venue for attacking others in their own stances.
I am NOT saying that solid discussion can’t be had, just that I’d prefer it to not become an argument.
As I stated before, it has never been my intention to go head to head or bit by bit over my personal stance. I have spent time coming to terms with what I think and feel and why I think and feel it. I do not feel it is necessary to explain the extent of it.
I’ve read all the responses and it does give me much to chew on, though I haven’t changed my mindset.
Thanks to all for putting your own thoughts here. It is IMPORTANT for all of us to not ever shut our minds to the explanations and words of others because something - even a minor little something - might just enlighten us or stretch us in a way we might not have thought of before.
Actually, Lanna, the evidence is that homicide rates are higher in states with the death penalty. I posted this link in an earlier comment as well.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?&did=1705#stateswithvwithout
SmocknMama, I certainly can’t argue with the numbers. Kennesaw made it a law that you have to own guns, and crime went down. But Kennesaw is a small, rich town where median incomes are $20,000 higher than the rest of the state, and most people already owned guns. Do you honestly think that if you required everyone to maintain a gun in cities with the highest crime rates (Baltimore, Washington DC, Detroit, St. Louis) you’d get the same results?
Alicia (and others), to answer your question, YES. I do think that. Honestly, I think that it should be all or nothing, one or the other, but nothing in between. Kennesaw didn’t just require it a law to make everyone own guns, they also required them to know how to use it. I don’t think it matters where you live, if the “bad guys” know you have a gun, know how to use it and WILL use it, they will be much more inclined NOT to bother you. I know this first hand. I grew up in a pretty good section of town, my eyes protected from a lot of things out there. My grandfather began teaching me to hunt when I was about ten years old. He taught me how to use a gun, respect a gun, clean a gun, etc. My guns stayed with him as my father didn’t want them in the house. We were robbed one day. Targeted by the robber because he watched and studied the neighbor hood. The only houses that got hit were the gunless ones.
For reasons not important to this post or comment I left home early, went to college, putting myself through a private university. To make ends meet I spent one semester living in my car, literally. I had no money for room and board, but I was determined to finish school. I got one of my hand guns from my grandfather and carried the proper paperwork and slept with my gun (covered) across my lap in my car. I was interrupted four times at night by men with the wrong ideas in their heads trying to break into my car. I showed the gun, never aiming it, and each one running off. I saved some money and moved into a dive to get out of my car. I paid $25.00 a week to live in this dive. I slept with my gun either across my chest or under my pillow. IT went with me everywhere, because coming and going from my neighborhood was dangerous. My “apartment” was broken into every. single. day. I set traps and had a friend in the police department help me with some stealthiness. I got tired of my place being ransacked and torn apart. I went to my grandfathers house, got my biggest hunting gun I had (it wasn’t very big, but neither am I) I was 5′2″ and barely 100 pounds, but my policeman friend took a picture of me holding my Marlin 357 in my Army cammos, blew it up, and pasted it to my front door. I was never robbed or bothered again.
Do I think that gun control having no guns would deter crime? No I do not. While some countries have done well with allowing only those who hunt to own hunting guns, and adding very high taxes to this process. The problem with this is that then it becomes a socio-economic issue, allowing only the wealthy to own guns.
I know that there will still be crime, even violent crime, whether we have guns or not. I was raped at 15 and no guns were involved, but I wish I had had mine on me then.
I like the death penalty. I wish more states used it. I do not agree 100% with Heather on the issues, but I do believe it is biblical as well. I think it should be used more prudently with less appeals and processes and used only on cut and dry cases. But yes, I believe it should exist.
[...] well, well…I sure opened a can of worms on Tuesday, didn’t I? Can I just say right off that I am THANKFUL for all of y’all? No seriously, [...]
I’m Canadian, so we don’t have capital punishment here, and thats something I’m pretty thankful for. I wouldn’t wanna be facing the guy at the Pearly Gates if I had pushed the plunger of a needle into an innocent man’s arm, thats for darn sure. While vengence sounds fabulous in most cases of crime, its not what we’re taught by said big guy.
On the flip side, I definitely think the prison system is too cushy, comfy and cosy, as of late. I don’t think humans should be treated like animals, even if they’ve behaved like them. However, all they should have is the absolute bare necessities. Enough basic food to eat, enough to drink, something to wear, and a place to sleep.
Other than that, I say life in prison should look pretty bleak. Television, internet or phone? Heck no. Rec rooms of any sort? No way. Access to getting a university or college degree while in prison? Absolutely not. If we allow that kind of stuff, the state/province/country is paying room and board while someone gets their degree. Does that sound like punishment to you?
As far as I’m concerned, let them rot in a cell somewhere. And no getting out early on parole for good behaviour either. Just serve the sentence that was handed to you for the crime you committed. End of story.
@ Kari,
I like the post before me here, from Vanessa in Canada.
The reason I feel you would change your perspective if you lived here is because I do not believe that you realize the extent of what goes on here. For example, what happens in Texas I don’t hear about on the West Coast because our news is too busy reporting on an escaped rapist and a hostage sitiation. That was just yesterday on 5 o’clock news. Right now they are reporting on a body found in the river.
My point is HEINOUS crime is sadly an everyday thing over here all across the US. I am sure you are aware that Australia and the US are basically the same size in land mass but differ drastically in population. It stands to reason that the more people you have then the more crazies you will have, wild guess at population, Australia 20 million, the US 400 million. That is a wild guess.
The problem with the criminal system here is that there is NO DETERRENT. There are no real consequences for the people comitting crimes. Jail is way to lush for my liking and criminals are being released way too early. For a few reasons, good behavior and also over crowding.
It makes me angry to hear day in and day out how someone is released for murder only to do it again and same for child molesters and rapists.
Life in prisonment should MEAN that and as we do have the death penalty (in some States) I believe we should use it. I have no doubt that if we did, it would be a deterrent. The reason life is cheaper than death row is due to all the appeals.
Personally I think life in prison without the comforts of home is far more of a punishment than death. However life in prison is not that.
There have been criminals that have admitted to re offending JUST TO GO BACK TO JAIL because they know they will get 3 meals, a bed, a TV etc.
I also STRONGLY disagree with you on saying that those on death row are minorities/poor. Since I have lived here the MAJORITY of the people that have had their death sentences carried out were white. WHITE. I also want to point out that they had been on death row for many years, in some cases 20. Every single one of them comitted the most heinsous of crimes.
When it is cut and dry I am all for the death penalty. I also agree with the people that have posted the fact that the criminals seem to have more rights than the victims.
All I am saying is that if you actully lived here you would see the big picture. Austrlia does not have enough hours in the day to cover all the crime that happens here and I am talking crime such as murder and rape. Heck WE do not have enough hours in the day to cover all the crime that happens day in and day out. Obviously, IMO there is no deterrent or consequence.
Check out the stats for crime in NYC after 9/11. It went down significantly under Mayor Gulliani. NYC went from the worst City for crime to the City with the least.
I don’t know why you are so concerned with the death penalty here anyway as it is a long time before it is carried out. I cannot remember the past person that we used it on. The death penalty is NOT a deterrent here becasue it is a long time coming if ever.
Not every State has it.
The criminals know this.
Again…..there are no consequences or deterrents over here. I fully believe if there were we would see a decrease in heinous crime.
When a man rapes and then murders an 8 year old girl…..WHY should he live?
What if it were your child?
I know if it were mine you would have to fight my Husband and I for who gets to him first.
Well I am leaving for Australia for a month and fly out tomorrow night so much to do. I know what Australians say over there “Only in America”. I was one of them before I moved here. Living here since 1988 has changed my views a great deal.
I would hate to be a Police Officer over here. They bave one of the hardest jobs.
Wow. I read this a few days ago and chose not to comment, but I’m developing some strong opinions here as I read through the comments of others.
I like what Kari had to say. I also like (most of) what OMSH had to say.
I think I don’t support the death penalty. I think some situations may warrant it, but I feel our society implements it poorly and with vengeful motivations. Were a family member of mine a victim, I would hope I would be able to forgive. That doesn’t mean criminals ought not to be punished. On the contrary, I think they should be punished more severely. Solitary is much harsher than death in my opinion. And it’s true, with the appeals and all it is more expensive to have someone on death row, if money is the issue.
I believe people can be rehabilitated. I believe in NOT giving everyone a second chance in society even if they are rehabilitated. There should be consequences.
It bothers me a lot that the poor and minorities are punished more. No, it bothers me that the rich and white are punished less. That’s a societal problem that goes way beyond the penal system.
Oh boy, my brain has gone way beyond my fingers to hell in a handbaskets, and the breakdown of families and on and on. This makes me sad. But I’m going to go home and bake cookies for my neighbors.
Oh, to the bible quoters out there, most of you stopped in the OT, law of Moses stuff. When Christ came, he fulfilled that law and gave the higher law of love thy enemy, bless them that curse you and all of that. So unless you’re Jewish, you don’t have a leg to stand on. :)
Love,
Emily
Emily - I would agree that the “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” OT cannot be used by Christians as an argument for capital punishment.
I also do not believe that the “turn the other cheek” quote from the Sermon on the Mount can be used to refute Capital Punishment.
Both have a context that is not really all that applicable here.
So much good discussion.
I find I have a tendency not to lean toward any extreme groups when it comes to statistics. If there was one thing I learned in College Math (and I assure you I didn’t take much of that with me) it is that statistics can be manipulated to say whatever anyone wants them to say.
Those FOR the death penalty can sway them their way. Those OPPOSED can do the same. So much of this boils down to personal conviction, the definitions of self defense, exacting revenge, and one’s take on forgiveness and accountability.
Wow, SmocknMama. You clearly have some interesting stories to tell! And you’ve given me food for thought.
Wow! Look what I missed! I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading this, so glad all the OMSHes are ok, and the comments were very thoughtful.
I’m not going to add anything else this time since I kind of hi-jacked the post last time.
Keep on being bold!
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